This post is prompted by the insanity that rang out from ALA ( #ARCGate) and then the subsequent shrugging of shoulders by bloggers, because really most of us don’t know how to handle ARCs. We treat them like candy. OMG OMG look how many I have!!! I have more then you, because I’M THE BEST BLOGGER EVER!!! Then after that all died down the new flare of instances where Bloggers are charging for reviews. Read about how Michele Gorman was asked to pay for her review and then Dear Author’s take on the matter.
Let’s Shut-Up and Talk About ARCs
When you ask other bloggers about their ARCs, they might have heard something from their publishing contacts (even though the majority respond with
my publisher never replies”), they reply with things like this:
MY Publisher contact said they could donate them to libraries
MY Publisher contact said they could send them to ALL their online friends
MY Publisher contact said they could have ten copies from ALA and have a million giveaways with those books
Can you tell I’m cringing. Because then I read posts like, the very passionate Elizabeth Fama and I see her point, to an extent (I think her post was a little over-the-top, especially where underprivileged children were concerned). I have read ARCs where there were TONs of grammar issues and whole scenes ripped from the pages. If I was the author, I wouldn’t want that to sit on the library shelf. But, then why are there ARCs on library shelves? I was under the impression that they weren’t supposed to be there. Am I wrong?
What we have to understand is that an ARC is a marketing tool. And it is usually produced 6 months before the final book comes out. Sometimes it goes through a few more rounds of editing. It is sent out to REVIEWERS to create early buzz. When you think Marketing – think numbers. The more numbers, the better.
Like on your Facebook Page, when it says, XXX people saw this post. Don’t you feel better if it would say 1000 people saw this post, instead of 10? That is marketing. As a marketing professional it is all about the bottom line, which is how much does this cost, compared to how much it returns. And most marketing departments will have to show numbers at the end of the quarter that proves their return on investment. This is most likely the reason why ARCs have declined in population. The departments are re-evaluating their marketing techniques.
When you understand this basic principal, a lot of the ARC rules make sense. ARCs are not rewards for bloggers, they are not entitlement for fans of the series. They are not gimme goodies that you can pass around to all your friends. They are a sales tool, not a prize to be won, bartered, or bought.
The point of that ARC that you have in your hand is to jack up sales for the book or prod a librarian or bookseller into picking up copies of the book for their shelves. They are not intended for giveaways, or to pass along to all your blogger buddies so they won’t have to buy a copy.
Yes, I know, most of you are probably disagreeing with me, or have different information, but the facts are, this is probably the underlying basic rules for most publishers as far as the treatment of their ARCs. Read them. Review Them. Shelve them.
Of course, rules are meant to be broken and publishers/authors intending to jack-up buzz, will sometimes offer ARCs for giveaways and gimmes or ARC Tours. Again to generate buzz. Mostly done through the authors, because even being THE AUTHOR they get around an average of 20 ARCs. Authors wanting to take their own marketing reins will distribute those ARCs as they see fit.
But, take this generous ARC giving in stride, if bad reactions, much like what has been happening lately with ARCGate, SirenGate, GRBullyGate or whatever stupid Gate you can come up with (prays there will never be a JunkeeGate, shoves those skeletons in closet) that revolves around the Blogging world and results in us looking like greedy children…the ARC population might be drying up, or reinventing itself, literally before our eyes. And, personally, I wouldn’t blame the publishers one bit.
On one hand they don’t want to be the “blogger basher” and give an ALL STOP to the ARC blogger phenom, but frankly, I think this is why, more and more books are being pushed as protected eARCs on sites like NetGalley and that other one, that I’ve yet to be approved for one request. (Can you tell I’m pouting?) Or, given to bloggers as finished copies only a few weeks before release date. Seriously, I’m actually getting a copy of a HOT series ender on the DAY of release. But, I think this is more so spoilers won’t go out.
Bottom-Line?
Let’s compare a publishing professional sending an ARC to a bookseller compared to a blogger, based on a return of investment.
One ARC is sent to a bookseller, who in turn decides to stock their shelves. Twenty books sold from that one ARC.
One ARC is sent to a blogger, who reviews it and let’s say two people buy the book because of the review. (Blogger averages 50 views on the review, click-through rate runs at about .5%-1%) BUT, said blogger passes the ARC on to their friend, who would have normally purchased that book, so that results in a >1 sale. One ARC = 1 sale. Do you see the logic in that, as far as bottom-line?
In order for publishers to think it is WORTH it to produce ARCs that they send to bloggers, you have to show results. And giving those ARCs away is not creating results. What it is creating, is large Mailbox Memes and Twitter fights which makes the rest of us Bloggers that do want to promote the publishing industry, instead of just getting “FREE” books, look bad.
Look, we all know that the publishing industry is trending toward the digital. With Amazon buying up all the publishing houses and ARCs coming across more and more through eARC distributers, print ARCs might be a thing of the past in a few years. We might find ourselves at BEA or ALA being given jump drives with eARCs that expire in three months and getting Cover Flats and Finished copies signed instead of ARCs. We also know that some Book Bloggers come ramming through the gates when they first start, looking for all these supposed free books and it tends to look badly on the established community. And frankly, you can’t tell them anything because they are in that unaware state of blissful ignorance that only shifts them into the aware state when they have 100 thumbs down on youtube.com and a multitude of mean tweets directed in their streams. But, unfortunately, the raing masses only see Book Blogger and nothing else. Suddenly, it becomes a hate filled arena directed at Book Bloggers in general. Then the Book Bloggers start hating on librarians and then authors jump into the mix and the next thing you know, there is a YouTube video of a librarian and a book blogger mud wrestling for an ARC of ‘Fifty Shades of Edward McCullen’ by Sally Meyers. Well…at least the publishers got the buzz they wanted.
I think I confused myself as to the point of this post/rant. But, as usual it falls within the realm of “Behave Yourself and Act Professionally.”
You are people dealing with companies and professionals selling their livelihoods. It is how they pay their bills, support their families and get by in life. So, act accordingly, much like you would if you were a business yourself. Polite behavior and always ask permission when redistributing someone’s property. It can be as easy as asking the publishing rep at the booth you are visiting if you can grab an extra ARC for a giveaway, instead of just snaking a hand out and nabbing an extra copy. A lot of times, they will say “yes.”
If you do get some negative feedback on twitter, or a comment from a ballet dancer (#bunheadgate) impersonating a librarian or an author who wants their ARCs annihilated, just ignore them and have them take up their grievances in the arena that it should be voiced: with their Association or the Publishing industry that produces the ARCs and distributes them indiscriminately. Because really, it all comes down to the Publishers. They are offering those books in a way that is easy to be manipulated. They are distributing the ARCs when they haven’t been edited properly or poetically enhanced. They decide the numbers and who gets them. Much like if you stick a bowl of candy in front of a child — why are you yelling at the child because he just shoved ten pieces in his mouth? You can instruct him on the severity of his actions as far as eating that much candy, but really, shame on the parent for not putting the candy in a more inconspicuous place.
What about Charging for Reviews?
If you want to charge an author for reviews, please don’t call yourself a book blogger. You are not a book blogger, you are a Marketing Site. Your site produces advertising and promo copy. Your reviews are not reviews, they are marketing copy disguised as reviews. They are a dishonest form of marketing. Much like if an author reviewed his/her own book. You can’t state your “honest” opinion, because frankly it’s not honest, it’s paid-for. And where do you draw the line? If some reviews are paid for and others are done for a “charitable nature” — how does your reader know what opinion to trust? They can’t know where the truth begins and the paid-for-advertising ends. I would be surprised if a blog like this had hardly any readers, much less loyal subscribers.
This just has greed and dishonesty written all over it.
I, personally, am faced with this problem on a daily basis. If you aren’t aware, I do marketing for authors, book covers, web sites and things like that. I want my authors to succeed, not because of just a general happiness to see an author to succeed, but because they are my client, their profit will most likely lead to more work for me etc. I don’t review their books. If you see one of my clients on this site, it’s a Guest Post or interview, but I have to tell you, I’m scared to read their books. What if I don’t like it? I wouldn’t be able to say that, because I have to market that book accordingly…and if I don’t like it…the inner reviewer is warring with my inner marketing goddess (look I’ve become the reviewer version of Anastasia Steele). Curiosity sometimes gets the best of me and recently I’ve picked up a few clients books, because other reviewers have raved about them. But, I’ve yet to review them…they haven’t paid me for a review, but I’m still worried about the integrity of this blog and my underlying intentions — because what if my opinion was swayed because I really really like this author and a bad review would hurt their feelings and might turn them away from doing business with me in the future? I don’t think so, but that inner marketing goddess might be a bit sneaky at times.
This is me trying to be honest with you, my reader. But, frankly, that is how I try to run this blog and my side design/marketing business. That is why I never fib about my stats (which is an allegation that has been voiced about the “paid review” site, ChickLitGirls – which BTW is completely shut down as of this morning). I keep them up to date on my About section. I don’t claim to get 2 million hits, just to push more advertising dollars my way. This is a personal choice, but it is also to keep my reputation as a blogger/business woman in tact. Because I know, people can check my stats. They might not be able to see exact numbers, but they can cross-compare. Take for example, Jane Little in her ChickLitGirls post, claimed that Dear Author gets “450,000 page views a month” WHOA! Their Alexa ranking is around 70,000 globally. Again, another Whoa! This is believable stats — that ranking is off the charts hot. I on the other hand average about 30K a month, with an Alexa ranking of a 296,893 (that is my WIP). Well, by cross comparison, you can see that if a person that averages about say 100K hits a month would probably be around the Alexa ranking of 150,000. A site with a ranking of around 450,000 is probably averaging about 15K pageviews a month. Easy to spot fudged stats.
Moral of this story? If you are a paid-for-review site, please call yourself that and don’t muddy the Book Blogger waters. This is our side of the street, yours is over there…and if you have stats on your page a little rounding up didn’t hurt anyone, but outright stat padding can be discovered very easily.
Don’t be greedy people!
Questions for my Readers:
Have you ever even thought of charging for reviews?
Because you know I also work for authors, does that make you trust my reviews less?
Happy Thursday. Talk Less. Read More. Blog with Integrity.
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Great post.
No I’ve never thought about charging for a review.
No, you working for authors in a design/marketing way does not make me truest your review less. Like you said, you do not review the authors that you work for and I think that is key to keeping you “honest” about your reviews.
Thanks Jenn, I appreciate it.
I’ve never really understood the craziness of the ARC mad dashes at conventions. Yes, it is awesome to get upcoming books, but I don’t think that excuses any entitlement attitude. I’ll admit that I do receive a good many ARCs/early finished copies, but I don’t take them for granted. Am I bummed when I don’t get one that I really wanted? Sure, but it isn’t the end of the world and there are plenty more books out there.
I just think professionalism is the key and some of those gloating posts seems rather over the top. There is a big difference in showing enthusiasm for books you receive and a post that acts like you are a better blogger than others.
As far as passing on an ARC, I kind of disagree with you on that one, based on my experience. When an ARC gets passed onto another blogger, that probably means another review before the release, and thus more promotion. I also think that the purchase rate is much higher than only two per ARC since the click through rate isn’t a really good indicator as there are so many more routes for purchase. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I just think reviews, especially when cross posted across several platforms have to result in more than just two sales. Granted that opinion could be stemming from the extreme depression that all my hard work would only result in two sales. *Shrugs*
As far as charging for a review, I don’t think we bloggers should do it. I just don’t see the necessity when so many other bloggers are willing to do it just simply for the love of books. It sparks and issue of dishonesty to me. I hope I’m not being a hypocrite as I just started to review books for RT Book Magazine, but I think that is a completely different story. I get a small fee for reviewing a book for them, but there is no stipulation for a positive review. Also, those reviews cannot be posted anywhere but the magazine, so when I write these, I’m not doing it as a blogger, but as a reviewer.
Thanks for the great comment KT. Look I’ve been completely given ARCs before by other bloggers and the reader in me is like “YES!”, but I do feel kind of bad about it. Because would I have bought those books, if they weren’t passed to me? Probably. And then secondly, because they were passed, and not direct inquiry review requests, I might get to them not as quickly.
I think this ARC passing is what fuels the whole “Do Book Blogger’s Generate sales?” because frankly, if book bloggers read other book bloggers and then pass their ARCs to other book bloggers — who is buying the books? I’m not saying it does happen, I’m just saying it might fuel it. My policy is Ask First — then pass it on.
I passed an ARC today to a blogger, but because I do feel it will get a review. I understand where you’re coming from though. When I read an ARC I usually don’t buy the book unless it was a book that I felt was BEYOND AMAZING and I have to own it! lol
In all honesty, I generally do not buy a debut author’s book. I don’t usually buy a new-to-me author’s book either. Unless it’s just something I have to have- buzz, overwhelming positive reviews, book club, etc.- I get the first book I read of an author from the library or borrow a copy from friends. I guess authors should look at ARC’s in terms of future sales, too. If I like their first book, I may buy their second. If it ends up being a favorite series, I’ll go back and buy all of the books from beginning to end.
I agree, I think there’s a cumulative effect to cross posting. It may not be one or two reviews that “sell” me on a book. But if I keep seeing it over and over on blogs, GR, etc., then I start to feel like I need to read the book. Sometimes it’s the multiple reviews or the overall buzz about a book that gets me to buy it.
Also, when I get an ARC or buy a book and love it, I check to see if it’s available at my library. When it’s not- even though I’ve read the book- I put in a purchase request. Patrons can ask that the library buy copies of a book. I’m not saying it’s me alone, but probably when I request it and there is “buzz” about the book and they get multiple requests…I’ve seen the library buy 10-20 copies after I put in a request. (Again, I’m saying that it’s me and a bunch of people who have heard about the book through various means)
I do that too. I will check to see if new books I enjoyed are in the library catalog and if not, I put in a request as well. I also follow their feed for what books they buy so I see my requests pay off.
Wow, so ChickLitGirls is shut down?!
I totally agree with you on charging for reviews. If you’re being paid, then I can’t trust your word on it. I would definitely think it’s bought. Or if you do charge, at least state it on the review. Say you were paid but that it didn’t affect your opinion. That would at least ease my doubts.
They just have a “coming soon” page up there.
I never thought about charging for my reviews. I was/am just grateful to be able to give my review. It is not an honest review, because being paid could swing your true opinion of the book. I just don’t believe it is morally correct to charge for a book.
I love this post! You nailed it! For a while now I have noticed everything you stated. It has gotten ugly and so many new blogs are being created for “Free Books” when they have no clue all the work that goes behind it. We did lots of giveaways in the beginning and lately we’ve slowed down because we realized we’re blogging and no one comments or stops by unless we have some ARC to put up for grab. It’s heartbreaking when you’ve worked so hard on a website and giveaways is really all people are after.
I wish Publishers would just stick with eARCs honestly. Lot’s of bloggers are fighting or envying others over ARCs and starting drama. What was once so much fun and brought readers together is now just one big ball of crazy.
Now I giveaway an ARC if I really loved it and want to help spread the word. I put it up for grab, but I haven’t done that in a while.
Mailbox memes is something I wish would go away. I did maybe four IMMB post tops, but always felt it was bragging and a way to show off. I don’t like it, but was told Publishers love it. So I tried it and stopped after like my 4th video.
I’ve honestly lost the urge to keep blogging a bit because it’s just not fun anymore. I used to spend hours on Twitter and GoodReads talking books and laughing with bloggers and readers. Now, I go on Twitter or GoodReads and it’s always drama and revolving around ARCs, authors and blogger fights, bloggers and bloggers fight… it’s just a little disappointing.
If it wasn’t for my author friends, followers (who actually do keep up with our blog) and the doors opening up for me this year, I would have quit already.
Maybe ARCs should just not be sent to bloggers period and this would all go away… who knows what will stop this madness. Don’t get me wrong, I love getting them in the mail and get excited, but I am okay with an eARC.
Oh and if you charge to review, you’re definitely not a Book Blogger! I would NEVER charge to review a book. That is not why I started my blog… that is just wrong. I would never trust a blog that gets paid to review.
I completely trust your reviews to be your honest opinion simply because you always seem very upfront about how you work, and you’ve never come across as sneaky or with a hidden agenda of over-promoting some authors etc.
I have never considered charging for a review, because it wouldn’t feel right. If someone paid me for a review and I hated the book I would not be able to write a good review and not hate myself for it.
Wow, tell it like it is Rachel! I was blissfully unaware of the the ALAGate (as you dubbed it), I don’t think I really want to get into it. I think that bloggers really need to start acting more professional in general. I do not think less of your reviews. I have considered selling advertising on my site, but have been hesitant because of various reasons, including the integrity of my own reviews and blog. But, I have been following your blog for a long time and I know that you post with honesty and integrity, and therefore trust what you say.
BTW, I would sell sidebar advertising- NOT REVIEWS! Okay, just clarification on that…
I hear ya, that is how to make money, right??
I don’t think sidebar ad would really rake in the $$.. but, it would help w/ the giveaways
Oh, and I checked the Alexa rating thing, you were right on, and it looks like my traffic stats are all pretty uniform… great tip w/ that one!
I wouldn’t feel right charging for a review. I am an amateur, I don’t have a degree in literature or a similar English degree and my grammar isn’t perfect and I’ve never had a job as a professional writer or in publishing. Also it’s hard enough not being bias in a review after sharing more than a couple emails with an author if I ever got paid for a review I know I would instantly be swayed to give a positive review no matter my opinion on the book.
Great post! First of all, I still love your site even though you work with authors. Maybe if you end up posting a review for the ones you work with you could add a disclaimer saying although you work with that author, it did not affect your overall opinion of that book.
And also, I hate how some blogs are up JUST because they want an ARC. I think it shows loads about their character as well. I love to get ARCs and I’ve actually only gotten eARCs and just recently physical ones sent from publishers. I think that if you want to be successful at blogging, you have to love what you do and ARCs really should NOT be your motivation to keep up a book blog.
Also, I’ve never thought about charging for reviews. I think it’s wrong and technically, you are NOT a book blogger if you charge, like you said. I don’t even think my reviews are charge-worthy actually LOL
. But I really can’t believe somebody would have the nerve to do that AND fudge up their stats to make it look better. -.-
Thank you good idea Eileen — I have recently read Julie Ann Walker’s first book and I really enjoyed it. It was a shame to not be able to review it.
I love your Book Blogging posts. I think that people need to realize that you can run a book blog site without ARC’s. When I started, I reviewed the books that I had in my Too Be Read Pile first. I like how that you are honest. It makes me sick to my stomach that people can be so greedy for money these days. I know the economy is bad. There are tons of book bloggers that would be grateful to read authors books for free, because they love books and want to help promote them. Great points all around. I dislike the Stop GRBulliesSite because they are posting people’s private information out and it’s an invasion of privacy for those bloggers that only have given out an honest opinion. It seems like scandals never die down, My mother said if you have nothing nice to say, don’t say anything at all. Great post.
Great post! You make so many excellent points!
While I love the surprise of getting bound ARCs in my mailbox, I honestly think the publishers are wasting a lot of money on not only the printing of ARCs, but on postage. It’s an industry fact that it costs publishers more per copy to print ARCs than it does for finished copies (larger print run=lower per copy cost). With that said, I can’t see many publishers who want to stay in business long-term NOT going the way of eGalleys. (And any book blogger who whines that they need print ARCs because they don’t have some kind of device or app to read it on, has no business calling themselves one- when my Kindle broke I read my stuff on my Kindle app or my COMPUTER, which ALL bloggers have, until a new Kindle was in the budget!)
There are a couple other points that I think a lot of bloggers miss that I feel strongly about… First, If I love a book that I’ve received in advance, I make sure to go out an BUY a finished copy? Why, when I already have an ARC? I want to support that author’s career so that I will get to read more by him/her later on. That especially applies to debut authors; let’s face it, Stephen King’s career isn’t going to suffer if I don’t buy his book, but someone unknown might not get to publish anything else if they don’t sell enough books. Second, I’ve heard bloggers say that they don’t feel an obligation to read the ARCs they are sent… I never feel obligated to read unsolicited books, and I don’t feel AS obligated to read or finish eGalleys (but I still feel some), but if I’ve requested a book for review, and a publisher has obliged and sent me one of their precious few bound ARCs, you bet I feel obligated to read and review it. My only exception to that rule is if I truly hated it. When that happens, I send the publicist a polite note thanking them for the book, and letting them know that I won’t be reviewing it (I’m not into bashing books to pieces in my reviews).
I think that common courtesy and realistic expectations are the bottom line here. If bloggers are polite, and courteous, not only to publicists and authors (that could be construed as ass-kissing if they treat everyone else differently), but to one another, librarians, booksellers, etc., there wouldn’t be as much #gate action. That goes for that sense of entitlement as well. Just because we review books, doesn’t mean we should feel like we should get them for free. Yes, it’s a nice perk, but let’s face it, those of us who are doing this for the love of books/reading are buying plenty of books anyway! Honestly, that goes for librarians too.
I have to disagree on the passing of ARCs to other bloggers. Do I think you should pass it to you non-blogger BFF? No. But passing it to another blogger, who is going to review it, further spreading the word, is just giving the publisher more bang for their marketing dollar (and my hubby agrees, and he’s a marketing guru and used-to-be sports publisher). I think passing along an ARC to another blogger is far more appropriate than giving it away on your own blog to promote traffic for yourself (unless,of course, the publisher wants you to). All my giveaways have been books that I have purchased in support of the author, to spread the word, because I loved the book OR at the request of the publisher (and then, only if I liked it enough to want to promote it). I think if everyone latched on to your (EXCELLENT) point that ARCs are for marketing purposes, and not best-blogger-prizes, there would be a much less of the nonsense that has clogged twitter over the past weeks…
As for the charging-for-reviews thing? Why is that even a relevant question? Why would ANYONE trust a paid review? I think TRUE book bloggers have way too much integrity and love of what they do to ever even consider that.
Anyway, I think I’ve carried on enough…. Great post!
Karis @ YA Litwit
I enjoyed this post and agree with everything you said whole-heartedly! I’m surprised they shut down their blog that quick – or at all, honestly. It just goes to show that they were in this community for the wrong reasons.
Charging for review is simply ridiculous. Who’s going to trust someone’s review if they charge for it? It’s biased and thus becomes null – at least in my opinion.
As far as ARCs, I give mine away most of the time because 1) I have no room and I refuse to throw a book away and 2) I usually buy a finished copy of the ones I loved. I also think reviews produce more than 2 sales. If you think about it, my review may make someone add their book to Goodreads, that someone’s friends will then see the book on their feeds and may add it ( and buy it), then their friends will see it etc etc, and this word of mouth is how a book gets noticed. Even if it wasn’t directly because of my review, indirectly is important too. I don’t give away ARCs often on the blog – but I do sometimes. I actually just posted one yesterday for a sequel of a series I haven’t and don’t plan to read (the ARC was unsolicited). I believe any sort of publicity for a book is welcome, and this way at least the book gets featured on my blog and may be noticed by dozens of people who will add it to their wishlist and, word of mouth cycle begins again. I commented on Fama’s post when it was posted and we all seem to have our own opinion on this one. I think if your intentions are good that’s what counts. I believe in sharing ARCs as long as the pub is OK with it – and in my experience most of them encourage it.
I do see your points on it, I understand the author’s POV as well, but I don’t think it’s going to have a negative impact on their sales by sharing – I actually believe the opposite. 1 lost sale from giving an ARC to someone who adds it on their Goodreads, or talks to friends about it being great, even if they don’t review it, will most likely produce more sales by simple word of mouth! That’s how I see it.
I posted that 1 sale on a review with 50 views… based on statistics that I’ve learned via marketing. I don’t account for word of mouth and things like that since it really can’t be measured. I do understand we might sell more than one book, but mainly marketing is about statistically averages, which make my eyes go crossed, but this is what these departments base their marketing campaigns on. They usually do a “group statistics” like Buzz Created via an online marketing campaign — and bloggers usually are within that market. And, while I have not worked with a publishing marketing department, I can only assume…mostly though, I think point of sale usually results in a combination of things and reviews on book blogs might be a percentage of that.
Oh ok yeah it makes sense when you look at it in a marketing statistic. Though I still don’t see giving my ARCs away as negatively impacting sales or I wouldn’t do it. If it would I also don’t think publishers would encourage it. However, I do try to give them away to other reviewers as much as I can afford the shipping. I also agree that giving it to a library or selling it is different (especially selling which is plainly unethical). And ARCs of books I really hated, I use as kindling. I recommend it. Awful books burn especially well.
Also about your reviews, I have a few bloggers friends who work with authors as well, or are even editors/publicists and I still completely trust their reviews – yours included.
I have to agree with you on that one. I try to give my ARCs away to other bloggers, usually ones that are just starting out and don’t have the same resources I do to get many review copies or people I’m good friends with and I know will review it eventually. I also ask that they pass them on when they’re done (to another blogger). I’ve spoken with publishers about hosting giveaways for ARCs and they’re fine with it, they encourage it because it means one more review for them without having to send out any more ARCs. I try to trade or pass ARCs along whenever I can, but when it gets to the point where I have too many to be able to send them all out to different people I’ll just host a box giveaway. I always buy the book if I really love it, so either way they gain a sale from me!
Awesome post, although i agree with Giselleco about how many books are purchased off of a review. I trust your reviews and think you are keeping the Marketing Goddess well tamed by not reviewing said books.
I think charging is ridiculous! I blog because I love to read, and I love to talk about what I’ve read! The ARC thing is something that I’ve been getting for a while, since I’ve been working at a bookstore for over 10 years, and only blogging around 3. It’s kind of a fun bonus. I’ve noticed you don’t have as many book reviews as other blogs sometimes, and now I understand why! It doesn’t make me trust you any less, because I feel your reviews are always honest and fair. This is a great post. And I’m jealous you get to read a series book on the day it comes out!!
I do not charge for my reviews. I feel that them providing me with a free book is more than enough, if they provide extra copies for giveaways YAY great! I do offer them the option for paid ad space if they are interested but it’s certainly not required. I agree tat ARC’s are meant to stay with the reviewer or maybe even shared among other reviewers but not donated to libraries, sold or anything else. Almost every ARC I have recieved state that on the cover, I guess I thought that was common knoweldege.
This is why I prefer eARCs. I don’t have to worry about them taking up shelf space or what to do with them after I’m done reading them. I just DELETE them and I’m done. eARCs are better for the environment and save the publishers money. Can you imagine how much a publisher’s monthly FEDEX and UPS statement are?
Jane from Dear Author once tweeted that a publisher had said to put ARCs in the recycle bin. I didn’t know this so I was glad she tweeted this. Though it does feel a little weird (and wasteful) to throw them in the recycle bin. Again, part of the reason I prefer eARCs.
The whole ‘charging $95 for a positive book review’ debacle is hilarious. That site was launched in February of this year and they’re comparing themselves to Kirkus. LMAO!!
I know it is against our “book collector” frame of mind and most are against it, but I think the collective publishing/author industry might prefer that the ARCs just “disappear” after being read for review.
Great post Rachel. I can’t really comment on the whole ARC-sharing bit as I live where ARCs fear to tread – but at times when I see the excessive ARC collections that people amass, I’m a little bit :-O.
And as Karis said below – the whole ‘I don’t read ebooks, so I want physical ARCs’ bit always strikes me as a little odd – surely if you are THAT desperate to read the book, you can find a way to read it as an e-galley.
However the whole charging for reviews thing astounds me – how can anyone be objective when they are receiving a fee for something? It’s difficult enough to review for an author you’ve interacted with on Twitter without feeling like you’re taking pot-shots at your neighbors kitten!
I don’t trust your reviews any less because you work with authors – you always come across as completely honest and open, and I’m sure that if you did review the work of one of the authors you market, you’d be completely up-front about it.
I completely trust and value your reviews. I would never charge an author to review. I figure that I get so many free books, that I’m still winning in the end. Plus, I review because I love to read. It’s simply for my enjoyment.
Personally, if I’m reading a book by an author that I would consider a friend and I find that the review forming in my head is more negative than positive and I wouldn’t be helping them out at all – I’ll tell them that I can’t read their book but offer to host a guest post or some such. Otherwise, I have no issue with honesty in reviews at all. And no, I wouldn’t consider charging for reviews. I would love to be able to make a living from my book blog but it is, at the end of the day, a hobby. I mean christ.. we already get the books for free.. surely that’s enough compensation for a balanced and honest review?
So I just checked out this Alexa site I didn’t know existed! So neat! (And I’m totally stalking this post btw), but anyways, I have a ranking of 495,000 with an average of 22-25k page views a month so that probably means they get about the same as me with 450,000. Right? Or maybe the ranking is not hugely affected by page views but some other stat like unique visitors? How many hits were they advertising? So above wanting to be paid for review, they were lying about stats? Very honest people, these ones.
Terrific post, Giselle! A few thoughts, as a author, a reviewer, and a blogger.
-Yes, ARCs are promotional materials. When people remove ARCs of my book off my publisher’s display, they are stealing promotional material. If they grab extra copies at ALA, it means that librarians may not read it and order it for the library. The ALA and publishers have to set rules and enforce them if they don’t want this to happen. Yes, the bad behavior of a few reflects on the professional behavior of most bloggers.
-I’ve been a professional reviewer. I was never paid by an author for a review. I was paid by my publications (newspapers and magazines) because I was providing content for them. Reviews are content for sites and benefit the sites. So Chicklit Girls was not only charging authors for promotion disguised as reviews on their sites, but then they were charging other advertisers. Diid they have other ads on their site? I guess I wasn’t one of the ha-ha 2 million ha-ha who visited for placement. Their threat of lawsuits for libel is hilarious. Just ask any lawyer.
-As a blogger, I’m often offered books for review. I don’t review, but if I think my blog followers will be interested in a book, I tell the publicist that I can do a giveaway with a contest, add blurbs, links, and cover art, and tweet. I don’t charge for this and frequently have to pay to mail the book. I try to make it work for everyone — my blog readers get a chance at a free book, I have something to post on my blog, and authors get their book promoted.
Sorry for the mix up, Para! I followed Giselle’s tweet over here and didn’t even look at the banner! Great post!
I agree with you on the charging for reviews…I don’t trust them. I run into the same problem as you with authors. I do beta for many and I become as invested in the book as they do and therefore wouldn’t be able to objectively review it. So I don’t…the few times I did review a beta project I let the reader know I was part of the process. I don’t charge for beta/editing so far. But if I ever do I wouldn’t review the project.
Your inner marketing goddess? Oh my goodness, I spot a 50 Shades reference.
That’s been my issue from the beginning, that people are getting cranky at book bloggers for accepting things that publishers are willingly giving them. The anger is so misguided it’s almost laughable. It’s like my co-worker getting mad at me because I was ASSIGNED one of her clients because she received so many complaints by them. And you’re mad at me WHY? I didn’t pretend to be you and fuck you over now did I?
As for charging for reviews, that’s their prerogative but they don’t get to call themselves book bloggers. Congratulations. You’re a publicist. I’m not going to call myself a banana because I feel like it and expect it to be true.
First – FIST PUMP to you for writing this post! I love your honesty!
Starting at the end: No, I would never charge for a review. I find it despicable. And no, I don’t trust your reviews less because you work for authors, I have authors I can legit call my friends, I work for some as well and I would never let that get in the way of an honest review. I know that they author would want my honest opinion as well. The idea of trusting someone who works for authors less has never crossed my mind, but that could be because I do as well and I remain neutral.
Onto ARCs: When I give them away outright, it’s to other bloggers – thus getting another review, thus making more buzz. In fact it’s really infrequent that when I actually host a contest for them, that I pull a winner that is not a blogger anyway.
Still I see your point of sharing it then leading to less sales, but (just devils advocate here) that would be the case weather I was sharing an ARC or a hardcover I bought at B&N. Who doesn’t/hasn’t shared their books? Also, many people strictly use Libraries and sites like Book Lender to borrow only and never buy a books…that too adds to lack of sales.
Now I don’t lend out my ARCs to non bloggers because I believe in the fact they are promotional and should be worked to death in that fashion before being shelved. If I can get 3 other bloggers to read it and review it, I will.
Lastly, at least from chitty chats I have had with friends who are not actual bloggers, when they have read ARCs (won from contests, GoodReads, Library Thing Early Reviewers..) it has lead to them pre-ordering their own, finished copy than anything else. And since those are the numbers that count toward the NYTs Best Sellers List, it in fact helped the author rather than hinder. Though my group of friends are a small group, drop in the bucket for all things considered so it can’t really be said that this is what happens everywhere..just blabbing on I guess
I have never been under the impression, or told, or even heard in fact that once read an ARC should be shelved. Though I’m only a year and a half old (bloggy-wise. Obviously based on my writing, I’m clearly at least 7 *wink*) But I’ve even pointed out frequently in correspondence with all my publisher contacts that I tend to give them away with the review and never once have they ever said not to, or even hinted at it not being their first choice.
As for the library thing…. From what I know, Library’s get them for the same reason that book stores do – to decide if the want to have it on their shelf. I have never seen an actual ARC on the shelf for loaning. But I do know that at yearly library sales, where they purge stuff no longer needed or that they have too much of, the do sell them. Not all, some just give them away to happy readers as best as I know – after release date. And some just recycles them…Still I haven’t a clue how anyone has 10 libraries around them that would warrant the need for 10 ARCs. I would like to follow those blogs and then jump on people when a giveaway for them pop up…because I don’t doubt that has happened….
Rounding out my mission statement here…damn…sorry! I think that any blogger’s need to respect the ARC more. THANK YOU for the post and for letting me talk too much
Keep up the fantastic work!
I would never charge for a review. Ever. Period. I have enough trouble as it is breaking the news to an author that I didn’t enjoy their book without the added pressure. Even if I someone could still manage to be 100% honest (even while being paid) who would believe their opinion to be truthful? I can’t take a review seriously if I know that there was money or other such things exchanged.
I want the freedom to express my honest opinion without guilt over an author having given me good money to read their book. We already get review copies for free. If you want to make money, don’t be a book blogger. There are other book-related online escapades that can bring in money with little guilt (Running a Blog Tour/ Book Marketing Websites for example). Book reviews should remain in the non-paid category. If a website really needs the income, to buy book for giveaways or to read for more reviews, there are other ways. Add a donation button or become an affiliate to a bookseller like Amazon or Powell’s.
Book blogging takes up a lot of time. My mom is constantly claiming “Well, that’s like a full time job!” when I tell her how much time I spend reading (which I do anyway) and then organizing and scheduling the blog. If I were looking for a way to make extra money, it certainly wouldn’t be blogging. Too much time for not enough (if any) monetary payback. I think that the most successful book bloggers are the one who pursue it because of their passion, and not because of their interest in gaining some kind of fortune.
I think I ranted too much.
To answer the last question…
As long as you’re not reviewing the authors that are your clients there would be no reason for me to believe you’re being dishonest (even on accident) with your opinions!
Well said! I’ve never thought of charging for reviews. Book blogging is a fun way of sharing my love of books that has in essence become a second job for me, but I love it so I can’t complain. I first began reviewing books that I owned and while I might have been sent an ARC or two, I’ve never passed it on to anyone else for the reasons stated in your post, if I can get a friend or reader to read a book through my review it’s an added bonus for me. I couldn’t see myself getting paid to lie about a book I absolutely hated!
That being said, I don’t think I’d ever judge your reviews based on your work with authors. I think you’ve established a reputation with your readers and your honestly has always been welcomed and appreciated in all your posts and reviews.
The amount of blog bashing and review hating going on lately is insane to me, if you don’t like something or someone’s review just don’t read it…freedom of speech and hate speech are not the same thing and people need to realize that!
Ok so I’ve been at this
for what, 3ish months and fiddlesticks I had no friggin’ idea that people had
the audacity to charge for a review. I thought the whole point of reviewing
books was to give your opinion on it, not market the s#it?! Ok yes, sometimes
we fall in love with a book and intentionally or unintentionally talk about it
until we are blue in the face and that becomes a type of marketing, but, ugh
sorry I’m just a bit disgusted. So, the answer to your first question is no, I’ve
never thought of it and would rather cut my big toe off than try and shove a
dollar amount at an author or publisher for a review. Disgusting.
On your second question,
no, absolutely not, because here’s the facts. You work for authors, but you don’t
work for every author under the sun. Plus I’m pretty confident that from
reading your reviews you would never fluff a review.
On to the ARCs – so, I knew
about ARCs when I started my blog. More importantly, I knew that ARCs were
something that crazy good bloggers got. I never thought that they would be
something that would end up at my door step. Then, I was introduced to
NetGalley, which is right up my alley. I eat, sleep and breathe my Nook so this
works great for me. It also gives me the opportunity to read and prioritize
book purchases. Yes, I still buy either hard copies or ebooks of ones that I
get for review. I find this to be my fair exchange for getting the eGalley.
Yes, I know we review it, but this is what I feel is my financial
responsibility to adding support to the publishing industry.
I have seen the out of control
bloggers who toted away oodles of books from BEA and it really did piss me off.
I work hard for every eGalley I get and each of the minimal ARCs I get a treasure
like I would Ryan Gosling. Have I contemplated what I am going to do with them
now that I’ve read, reviewed and purchased the finished product? Yes. But I
have yet to make any move with them. Maybe they will forever sit on the shelf
next to their completed version, who knows. Either way, I know that each person
that went crazy further dampens the view authors, publishers, publicists and
OTHER BLOGGERS have of newbee’s like me. So, I’ll stick with my NetGalley and
yea, that other site that has yet to approve me for squat too J
Lastly, your point on the
status padding, fibbing and outright lying. This completely humored me. For every
day I have blogged I have tried to master reading my stats. Shortly after I started,
I realized I had my configurations jacked 6-ways-to-Sunday and had been displaying
the wrong numbers. I had a meltdown when I realized this. I knew, just KNEW
someone was going to think I was lying. I actually went back though NetGalley
and emailed the publishers that approved me because I was so scared. So, now I feel
like a bit of an idiot because apparently my flub is nothing compared to some
peoples lies. But hey, it made me feel better to tell the truth.
Ok long winded…*sigh*…LOVE
YOUR POST, love your blog and keep going and don’t late the haters get you
down!
Great post and I agree with what you say whole-heartedly! Charging for a review makes me feel like the blogger would then somehow owe the author a good review and book blogging should always be 100% honest!
Wow is everyone still talking about ARCs? I wish they’d all go digital and have a set expiration date on release date or 30 days thereafter. While they are exciting to receive in the mail, the drama doesn’t seem worth it.
I guess I missed the recent ARC gate and I guess I’m glad I skipped ALA if that’s what caused it.
But I agree with you, they’re a marketing tool. They need to get in the hands of people who are going to generate the most buzz, create the most pre-release interest and create the most advance sales for the book. I think the problem comes to be is that the publishers haven’t been as careful with ARC distribution as perhaps they should. The blogosphere isn’t new and there must be some way to gauge views and clicks and probabilities of sales.
I stopped watching mailbox posts because of ARC envy back in 2011 pretty much exclusively. And while I love getting ARCs from trades, I’d be just as happy with those digital copies. Because for me it’s just about reading the book early. I read Demon Eyes over 100 days before release. That is what’s awesome! And hey if I generate sales by my chatter that’s even more awesome IMO.
But the charging for reviews thing… NO. Not for me. Unless I was hired on by a publication to produce reviews, I’d never sell my integrity for cash. I may be miss cheery reviewer but that’s me, that’s not for a few bucks.
And I do think your reviews would be honest if you reviewed your clients work. You might not be as frank about your opinions but I don’t think you could ever cover them up. Of course I do think if you read and reviewed all your clients work one day you will run into problems and lose a client because of it. You can’t like every single thing all the time.
Though if you designed a cover for a book and a trailer and you wrote your review and included that cover and trailer which promotes you, people may very well feel it’s crossing that fine line. While not promoting the author, you’d definitely be self-promoting in some way. It’s a tough situation. But I think a lot of it depends on the professionalism of the client and just how separate you keep your design business and your book blog.
Although if I were to compare my situation with an author’s, being a client of yours myself, if you called my reviews Pollyanna and my blog fluff and a “do not visit” it’d be a tough pill to swallow when thinking about my next design project… so maybe a “no review” policy is best. Hmmm.
I keep all my ARC’s, but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t use them for a book swap with my lovely Blogger friends, so they can read a book they’re really eager to read! But I wouldn’t donate them to a library/bookstore/giveaway etc, because– as you said– they’re not the finished copy.
I think charging for reviews puts on the pressure to make sure you give a good review, therefore possibly not making it honest. And you’re right, it makes the site a marketing site, rather than a book blog.
Awesome post here!
I love these Blogging 101 posts Rachel – they cover topics that book bloggers need to be aware of, even of they don’t currently affect them.
Here in South Africa we receive very few physical ARCs from publishers so they are even more precious resources when you are sent one for review. It baffles me that people take these for granted. In fact, any book you receive for review, whether an ARC or a completed edition, is something that you should respect. I am always blown away when authors or publishers send me review copies. It’s a privilege, not a right.
I also think it’s important to keep in contact with the publishers. If you can’t review the ARC by the release date for some reason (illness, exams, fire, attacking space lemurs) then it only takes a few minutes to let them know. When I have had to do this in the past the publishers have been very understanding.
Bloggers can be a great tool for the publishing industry and it’s a pity that a few give the community a bad name. I missed out on ALAGate and the ensuing drama – much to my joy.
As you say, it really does boil down to behaving professionally.
I would consider charging for a review only if I was writing it for a specific publication (eg. magazine or newspaper). Definitely not if the author or publisher approached me.
It doesn’t bother me that you work with authors. I’m sure that you are quite capable of separating your design work and personal contact with them from your opinions as a reader.
Yikes – sorry for the waffling comment! Have a great weekend Rachel.
I totally agree with you about asking for an extra copy. I went to Comic-Con this past weekend and I ended up with a bunch of books I already own because the publisher or author told me to just take a copy anyways, even though I told them I already had one. I went to a Dark Days signing with Aprilynne Pike, Dan Wells, and S.J. Kincaid and they were giving all three books away (2 I already had) and Dan and Aprilynne were telling me to just take a copy and give it to a friend or give it away on my blog.
Same goes with some of the publisher booths. If we chatted about a certain book and they offered me an ARC I already had, they just gave it to me anyways and told me to host a giveaway or share with a friend. I know Comic-Con is a whole different rodeo from ALA because it’s not a professional event, but just a good time and so people are going to be a bit more greedy since they’re only there for free things, but I think it was nice of them to just tell me to take it despite already having a copy.
I’ve never thought of charging for reviews. I can where bloggers would want to make money somehow though. Bookmarks, business cards and design for the blog costs. Most pay money to Google or Word Press yearly to keep the blog. I see it as spending money on a hobby I enjoy. A member of my family who I argue with constantly about my blog and the money I “waste” on it sees not charging for reviews as an ignorant decision on my part. There is the fact that I do not pay for as many books as I used to, does that compensate for the money the blog costs? I think so.
I can see where your thoughts on books that you market would make you question your own objectivity. That thought never even crossed my mind, but I also do not market and promote books as you do.
In all honesty, when I started blogging with my friends, I was crazy about getting free books. I think that’s how this all starts. You see all these top bloggers receiving hundreds of ARCs a year, and sometimes they don’t even read all of them. Then new bloggers (me) challenge themselves to read every free book/ARC they get. However it gets out of hand.
I did get some ARCs but I noticed I still haven’t gotten to all of them yet. I, as the others on our blog, decided to only request books if we really want to read them. All of those unread books put way too much pressure on me. I was trying to read books way too fast. I think I read at least 70 books this year so far, and only reviewed maybe 40.
So now, I only get maybe a few ARCs per month. As for any other book, I just buy them or burrow them from the library.
E-galleys however are a way different story. On Netgally, I got auto-approved for different publishers and it’s hard not to request every book they have. I also just started Edelweiss, and I got approved for a couple of books as well. I agree though about ARCs vs e-galleys. When you have a time-limit on e-galleys, you rush to read them. I sometimes end up buying the books that I don’t get in time to read because I only think it’s fair for the publisher and author. And then with ARCs, they never go away so most are left unread.
As always, Parajunkee, great blogging tips/discussion.
Emilia
First things first, hi Parajunkee – I discovered you during the TSS kerfuffle.
To the matter(s) at hand:
I have never thought to charge for my reviews. It’s not because I saw that as some kind of “unethical” way of conducting things…it’s because it never entered my mind.
Now that the concept has been placed in front of me…um NO. I would feel (among other things) wrong about charging for a review. I would not want to put myself in a position where I might feel like I couldn’t be totally honest. Plus, there’s the whole “you’re-actually-a-marketing-site” thing. Frankly, when I saw that post on DA about CLG’s paid reviews, it disgusted me. Though most of that disgust was in reaction to the nasty way they handled themselves with the author. The contradictory “business model” was irritating and well…laughable.
As for ARCs – I didn’t even know they existed when I began blogging. I had come across a few when I worked in bookstores, but I assumed that they were only available to booksellers. So I was quite surprised when I received my first ARCs for review. On the whole, I don’t seek out ARCs, as I have plenty of books to keep me busy (my own library, a way-too-long TBR list, and a library card). When I review an ARC, I state that fact very clearly in the beginning of the post.
I would totally understand if publishers began to reign in the distribution of ARCs to bloggers. It’s a lot to keep track of, and they have marketing personnel that take the time to email bloggers and package and send those copies out. That’s time and money that they are investing in the process beyond simply printing them. If they feel that they need to save money somewhere…that would be the first place they’d cut.
As for me, I’m a relatively small blog. I probably have a much higher readership on twitter than I’ve had on my blog during the last few years it has been “public”. I therefore don’t suffer from having too many ARCs around, so I haven’t had to deal with the question of how to “dispose” of them. I haven’t given any away, and I have not gifted them to my family or friends. They sit on my bookshelf, and that’s about it. I figured when the time comes, I’ll contact the appropriate marketing departments and simply ask if they have a preference regarding disposal of old ARCs.
Keep up the good work on here, and thanks for opening up this discussion!
~ Miss Bookish Girl
Omg! See, I was right with Fama and could COMPLETELY see where she was coming from UNTIL the underprivileged kid comment. I was done after that. See I was always under the assumption that ARCS were NOT supposed to go to libraries or used bookstores (I thought used bookstores were under some type of “legal” obligation NOT to purchase them) but what the hell do I know right?
Is there really a site against SS? I really must get around more dude! But I’m totally off to google it anyway!
SUPER fabulous post AS usual darling!
I’d love to be paid for all my hard work, but that’s not how it’s done. I wouldn’t be able to give an honest opinion if I was paid. I know this about myself. I’m a people pleaser and it wouldn’t happen.
I have absolutely no idea about stats BUT the other day I saw a Mommy blogger who claimed to get 4,000 hits per day. She has 107 GFC followers. Now, even I’m not that dumb. THAT is a stat pad if I ever saw one! There is NO way. NO WAY!
I didn’t know you didn’t review your clients books. I think that is a great way to make sure you yourself stay honest and true to your blog and content.
First of all I think this is a little more complex subject. I for one think taking payment from an author is an whole other ballgame then say if publishers have to pay for a reviewer to read and review one of their books. Reviewers in papers get paid, so why not someone who wants to live off book blogging? I trust reviews in the newspapers so why not a paid blogger, unless said blogger states in his or hers review policy that payments = a positive review of course(which seemed to be the case with ChicLitGirls). I do know that journalists doesn’t get paid by the publishers but I still feel like comparing the bloggers to the professional reviewers in some way… One could say that book bloggers receiving ARCs can’t be trusted to be honest either because they might be afraid that their 100 % honest opinion results in no more ARCs for them(at least newbie bloggers).
Am I making any sense? And just to be in the clear I have never received or asked for payment for reviews
Wow and this might be my first time not totally agreeing with everyone else in a BB101 post LOL
And by the way I trust your reviews and I do think you’re good at drawing the line with having Parajunkee’s Design in addition to PJV.
I say forget the whole thing and concentrate on getting on TV. I coach authors how to get on TV and believe it or not, if you use the right system it is a lot easier than this mess. Thanks, Edward Smith
WOW! All i can say is i must have blinkers on because i was totally oblivious to all of this, wow! I had no idea that people carried on this way. Maybe i am just naive and fairly new to blogging but when i receive arcs (as e-books) i feel privileged to get accepted each time! I then will read it, review it and keep it just for me. The thought of all this what goes off, why, just ruins it for everyone else. Getting paid for reviews- i almost choked on my drink, please! who some people think they are. Right blinkers back on, back to my bubble as it’s all ‘happy’ there lol.x Oh dear…..
I am relatively new to book blogging (with about a year under my belt) and I’m still learning all the ropes. I would never try to make money from book reviews. I review books because I love it. I do have the Amazon Associates and post links to buy books. The very small amount I earn from that I put into giveaways…but its not like I make a huge deal over that.
I do receive ARCS, mostly as part of book tours. I do a lot of book tours, because at this point, they help bring visitors to my site AND I get the chance to read books I might not have previously known about.
I have never, and would never ask an author directly for an ARC of their book.. From my understanding – that’s pretty rude. I have had authors approach me about reviewing their books, and I try to give them a realistic time frame, if it’s a book I’m actually interested in.
I have just recently discovered netgalley and requested a few books – and to my surprise, I was approved for some – including a sequel to a book that I loved. I try to make it a point not to hoard ARCs but to only accept the ones I’m willing to read in a timely manner.
As far as giving ARC’s away – that doesn’t happen. The only time I have ever given away an ARC is if I read a book as part of a book tour, and the author tells me that I have permission to give the book away, as a giveaway – which I advertise in many places. The giveaway draws people in to the review/guest post/interview and I have had people tell me that they have purchased the book from these events.
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